Photo: Ma Yongbo standing in front of Giant Wild Goose Pagoda, Xian, China,
“In Ma Yongbo’s poetry, one can feel an insatiable hunger for exploring the true essence of existence—no trace of luck, no longing for redemption.— “The Secret of Polyphony—An Analysis of Ma Yongbo’s Poetic Art Through Multiple Perspectives” (Huang Liang, Poet, Critic, Taiwan)
the nonsense of vertigo—for Yongbo 眩晕的胡话——致永波
—standing in a photograph, arms folded, in a black dragon t shirt,
in front of the Great Wild Goose Pagoda, after 3 weeks on the road
the poet’s hair is visibly becoming a black shaking storm,
the rising waves shaping themselves about his ears;
his hair hears the blank song of wild geese.
In revisiting height there are the stages
of both climbing and toppling.
The great wild goose pagoda is flying above him,
it has no feet. What constitutes for wings
are extending stone shoulders stretching sideways,
each corner leads a pale smile across stone.
Although standing at the bottom
he could quite easily be at the top
looking down, seeing himself through wings
of stone, rising without feet. Turning the wings
into inverted skirts, hems to drag the earth,
lift upwards in strong thermals, their strong bright
distance growing; leaning forwards
as if falling does not exist
14th May 2025
Response Poetry by Helen Pletts 海伦·普莱茨
Response Poetry Translated by Ma Yongbo 马永波
眩晕的胡话——致永波 the nonsense of vertigo—for Yongbo
——站在一张照片里，双臂交叉，穿着黑色龙纹T恤，
在大雁塔前，历经三周旅途之后
诗人的头发显然在变成一场黑色震颤的风暴，
涌起的波浪在他耳际塑成形状；
他的头发听见大雁空洞的歌声。
重访高度时存在着
攀登与倾覆的双重阶段。
大雁塔在他上方飞翔，
它没有双足。构成翅膀的
是向两侧延展的石质肩膀，
每个角落都在石头上牵引出苍白微笑。
尽管站在底部
他却很容易置身顶端，俯瞰，
透过石翼看见自己，无脚攀升。
将翅膀化作倒置的裙摆，下摆拖曳着大地，
在强烈的热气流中升腾，明亮的远方
不断延展；身体前倾
仿佛坠落从未存在
2025年5月14日
海伦·普莱茨
Helen Pletts海伦·普莱茨 : (www.helenpletts.com) Shortlisted 5 times for Bridport Prize, twice longlisted for The Rialto Nature & Place, longlisted for the Ginkgo Prize, longlisted for The National Poetry Competition. 2nd prize Plaza Prose Poetry 2022-23. Shortlisted Plaza Prose Poetry 2023-24. English co-translator of Ma Yongbo. Ma Yongbo is listed among the 100 famous contemporary Chinese poets since the 1920s. He is the main poet-translator of Western postmodern poetry on the mainland, including Dickinson, Whitman, Stevens, Pound, Williams and Ashbery. Helen’s poetry is translated into Chinese (by Ma Yongbo), Greek, Vietnamese, Serbian and Italian.
Photo by Ma Yongbo: Small Wild Geese Pagoda, Xi’an, China
The Wheat in Central Plains is Ripe
The wheat in Central Plains is ripe, short and with yellowish stalks
in every field stand lonely graves
each grave clings to a small green tree
like desperate children, fearing to be uprooted by howling winds
beneath, ancestors like wheat bran cling to fragile roots, swaying
The wheat in Central Plains is ripe, parched this year
next year’s hope is dim; people’s faces share the same sallow hue
Yellow dust rises from the northern loess plateau
blocked by the Qinling Mountains in the south, it lingers in the sky
forming clouds, sparse raindrops of muddy yellow fall
repainting the wind chimes on the eaves of Big and Small Wild Goose Pagodas
On the horizon, a team of wheat harvesters’ shadow puppets, thin as paper
dragged by the horizon, they drift away, vanishing without a trace
The wheat in Central Plains is ripe, at night
someone always stands long in the field with a lantern
crushing an ear of wheat in reddened palms
tasting the aroma of lean, hard grains and yellow earth
then, leaning against ancestral graves
counting stars as sparse as hope in the sky
Written on the train from Luoyang to Shangqiu, May 22, 2025
By Ma Yongbo 马永波
Translated by Ma Yongbo 马永波
First Published Primelore 3rd June 2025
中原的麦子熟了
中原的麦子熟了，矮小，头发枯黄
每一块田地里都有一些孤零零的坟墓
每一座坟墓都紧紧抱着一棵绿色的小树
像是绝望的孩子，生怕被大风连根拔起
下面，麦麸一般的祖宗们抱住细弱的根须，打提溜
中原的麦子熟了，今年缺水
明年也难说，人们的脸色同样发黄
来自城北土塬的黄尘，升腾起来
被城南的秦岭挡住，在空中徘徊
形成云层，黄泥色的雨点稀稀拉拉
给大小雁塔檐角的风铎重新刷漆
天边，一队薄如纸片的麦客的皮影
被地平线牵引着，渐行渐远，不知所终
中原的麦子熟了，夜里
总有人打着灯笼在麦地里长久伫立
用通红的掌心搓碎一支麦穗
品尝到瘦硬麦粒和黄土的芳香
然后，倚靠着先人的坟墓坐下
数着天上同样稀疏的星辰
2025年5月22号于洛阳赴商丘火车上，马永波
NASIR AIJAZ, Editor of Sindh Courier interviews Poet MA YONGBO
Photo: Nasir Aijaz copyright © Nasir Aijaz
Nasir Aijaz – Sindh, Pakistan
Journalist, Author, Researcher and Poet
Nasir Aijaz, based in Karachi, the capital of Sindh province of Pakistan, is basically a journalist and researcher having spent half a century in the field of journalism. He won Sindh Governor’s Gold Medal and All Pakistan Newspapers Society (APNS) Award for best reporting in 1988 and 1989. He has worked in key positions of editor for newspapers and news agencies. He also worked as a TV Anchor (For Pakistan Television) for over a decade and conducted some 400 programs from 1982 to 1992 besides appearing as analyst in several programs on private TV channels. He also did dozens of programs on Radio Pakistan and some other private Radio channels. He is author of ten books on history, language, literature, travelogue and biography. One of his books ‘Hur – The Freedom Fighter’, a research work on war against the British colonial forces, also won second prize, awarded by Endowment Fund Trust (EFT) of Sindh government. Around a dozen other books are unpublished. Further, he translated a poetry book of Egyptian poet Ashraf Aboul Yazid, into Sindhi language, which was published in Egypt. Very recently, he translated a novel ‘Maharaja Dahir’ from English to Sindhi language, which originally was authored in Bengali by Debasree Chakraborti, a renowned novelist of Kolkata, India, which proved a bestselling book in Sindh. Besides, he has written around 500 articles in English, Urdu and Sindhi, the native language of Sindh. He is editor of Sindh Courier, an online magazine and represents The AsiaN, an online news service of South Korea with regular contribution for eleven years. His articles have also been translated in Arabic and Korean languages. Some of his English articles were published in Singapore, India and Nigeria and Egypt. He started writing poetry in his native language Sindhi, and English very late. Some of his poems have been translated in Odiya, Bengali, Hindi, Telugu, and Albanian, Italian, Arabic and Greek languages. Arabic translation has been published in Egypt, Iraq, and Abu Dhabi. His English poems have been published in Albania, Bangladesh, Kosovo, Serbia, USA, UK, Tajikistan, Greece, Italy, Germany, and some other countries. Recently, the Odiya translation of his poetry has been published in a literary magazine ‘Mahuri’ of Bhubaneswar, Odisha, India. His interviews have been published in Kenya, Italy, Albania, and Azerbaijan. He has received certificates of recognition for his role in promoting global literature, from international organisations of India and other countries.
Nasir Aijaz is one of the founding members of Korea-based Asia Journalists Association AJA. He has visited some ten Asian countries including Afghanistan (2 Times), Nepal (3 times), Bangladesh, India, Maldives, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, South Korea (7 Times) etc. and attended international seminars and conferences. Email: [email protected]
INTERVIEW LINK https://sindhcourier.com/chinese-scholar-ma-yongbo-says-global-trends-dominate-chinese-literature/
Nasir Aijar to Ma Yongbo : Tell Me About Your Personal Literary Work
- What inspired you to become a writer/poet? What themes do you explore most often in your work?
A perplexity about the meaning of life. At six years old, I became intensely fascinated—even obsessed—with questions of life and death, constantly trying to understand their essence. Most people, as they age and mature rationally, set aside these ultimate inquiries and become what Heidegger called “average beings”—alienated and fallen. I have been fortunate never to become such an “ordinary person.” The exploration of life’s ultimate questions has permeated my entire existence without a moment’s respite. Of course, this has brought profound suffering that few can comprehend.
My themes are broad but can generally be categorised as: the soul’s HOME, self-alienation, the relationship between humanity and nature, social critique, and reflections on the creative labor process itself.
- How do your personal experiences influence your writing?
Writing material stems from genuine emotions and experiences. Indirect experiences (such as inspiration from reading) must merge with direct experiences. Some of my poetry records real-life events in the plainest language, stripped of literary embellishments like symbolism, metaphor, tension, or irony. Instead, I confront facts nakedly, preserving the raw texture of life through objective documentation. Personal experiences always reflect the broader era and society. Overly rhetorical poetry distorts and abstracts reality.
- Can you tell us about your latest work? What message do you hope readers take from it?
My recent works in 2023 include response or same-title poems with British poetess Helen Pletts. These may not fully represent my poetic ideals—there’s an element of friendship—but their significance lies in reviving the ancient Chinese tradition of poetic exchanges, albeit through modern and postmodern techniques. These poems are rainbow bridges between poets of different languages, proving poetry’s power to transcend the Tower of Babel and achieve human unity and peace—a meaning that surpasses poetry itself.
Meanwhile, I’ve been working on a cross-genre book titled POUND CANTOS or VITA NUOVA. It remains an attempt to overcome cultural barriers and facilitate East-West dialogue, blending Chinese and Western poetic forms, dramatic fragments, philosophical meditations, and autobiography. It defies categorisation—traditional line poetry can no longer contain my materials and ideas.
- Do you feel that your writing reflects modern China, or do you take a more historical or abstract approach?
My writing is undeniably tied to contemporary Chinese society, sometimes directly, sometimes hidden within complex structures and imagery. I am not a poet parallel to my era but one entangled fiercely with it. I reject abstract, detached perspective of writing—where the poet’s subject is severed from their lived experience. Theme-first conceptual writing is fundamentally unpoetic, yet many Chinese poets still practice this. In my work, subject and self are inseparable: I am all things, and everything is me, akin to the Buddhist notion that “green bamboos are Dharma bodies; yellow flowers are Prajna.” Abstract poetry, like abstract virtue, holds little meaning.
Broadly, I see myself as a modern Tao Yuanming—not in skill but in spirit. Tao was obscure in his lifetime (The Grading of Poetry ranked him as “mid-tier, lower”), yet posthumously, his literary status surpassed even Wang Wei and Li Bai.
- What is your writing process like? Do you follow a routine, or is it more spontaneous?
The writing process remains mystical. Even if we emphasise its “working” nature, as Baudelaire and Rilke did—rejecting reliance on inspiration as “secret orders from hidden mouths”—inspiration remains essential. The “craftsman spirit” in poetry is more an ethical stance. I write short poems swiftly, like Li Bai composing “on horseback,” but my epics take decades. Poetry demands transcendent revelation. spontaneity, improvisation, and reason coexist.
- Do you see your poetry as a form of social commentary, or is it more personal and introspective?
My poetry merges social commentary, personal reflection, and introspection—they cannot be strictly separated.
- What is the biggest challenge you have faced as a writer in China?
Let me answer with a poem:
How to Be a Poet in China
Those poets who publish frequently,
treading government offices like their own homes
Those poets who publish books endlessly,
waving iridescent water-sprays
Those poets stepping off one stage onto another,
wearing floral coats, feigning solemnity
Those poets winning awards quietly,
bestowing prizes upon one another
Those lonely poets pulling down their hats,
flashing through crowds
then vanishing like revolutionaries
Those poets who speak rarely,
their voices rusty from long silence—
like mourners pushing open palace gates
where gods have long departed
Those poets surfacing from the ocean of creation,
breathing briefly, raising solitary spouts—
giant whales
Those occasional poets
December 20, 2022, morning
- How do you see your work fitting into the broader tradition of Chinese literature? Do you draw inspiration from classical Chinese poetry or more contemporary influences?
Classical Chinese poetry’s tradition is lyricism and expression of ideals. At my core, I remain a lyrical poet, but lyricism alone cannot address modern complexities. Thus, I pioneered a revolutionary shift in Chinese: from subjective lyricism to objective presentation—not self-expression but revealing things as they are. This “objective poetics” aligns with the highest realm of Chinese philosophy and aesthetics: unity of heaven and humanity. Classical poetry achieved this through juxtaposed imagery and hidden subjectivity (e.g., “A light rain, paired swallows fly; / Fallen blossoms, a lone figure stands”). But modern Chinese differ utterly from Tang-Song predecessors—we need new methods to observe a changed world. My work reaches this sublime realm through entirely modern techniques.
About the Literary Scene in China
- How would you describe the current literary landscape in China? What major themes or trends do you see emerging?
I lack the vision to assess whole contemporary Chinese literature—perhaps only God could. I’ll focus on poetry’s flaws. The greatest ill is its cynicism and flatness.
The 1990s’ “personalised writing” dismantled grand narratives, returning poetry to the individual self rather than collective representation. This corrected the Misty Poetry paradigm but bred dangerous trends: poets wallow in trivial self-indulgences, abandoning moral responsibility for universal human conditions. The exploratory vigour of the 1980s has stagnated, with little progress in form or spirit.
In the internet age, avant-garde poetry grows reactionary. Established poets cling to stale rhetoric, disconnected from the times; others revel in petty-bourgeois vulgarity or crudely mimic classical language without reflection. Many write detached, objectified poetry devoid of lived pain. Contemporary Chinese poetry is a wasteland of carnivalesque desolation—grand voices silenced, individual souls barren and self-alienated, oblivious to suffering, masking reality with bourgeois sentiment. Since the 2000s, I’ve championed “difficulty writing” to restore purity.
- Do you think Chinese literature today is more influenced by traditional culture or by global literary trends?
Global trends dominate. Since the early 20th century, Chinese poetry severed ties with tradition, turning westward. Few poets aspire to create a Chinese poetic tradition. Avant-garde poets superficially adopt Western techniques while missing their essence. These techniques mask spiritual poverty, becoming harmful disguises. I say with slight pride: most postmodern experiments in Chinese poetry relate to my translations or writings. If Chinese poetry is stuck in a mire, I am its architect—my greatest sin. I introduced Anglo-American postmodern poetry to China, broadening horizons. Yet, due to poets’ intellectual poverty, they mimic what Americans abandoned in the 1950s as novelties. For instance, many imitate John Ashbery—but they’re imitating me, not him.
- What are the challenges faced by writers and poets in China today? Are there any limitations or other issues that affect creativity?
Satirical and socially critical poetry is nearly extinct. Official publications only carry bland, inconsequential verses. Thus, I urge poets to write the unpublishable—poems few would embrace.
- How has digital media and the internet changed the way literature is produced and consumed in China?
Self-publishing platforms democratise and diversify poetry but also foster fast-food writing. Young poets care little for official print media; online platforms suffice.
- Is poetry still widely read and appreciated in China? How does it fit into modern Chinese society?
Outstanding Chinese poetry (though rare) remains the nation’s deepest inner voice, accompanying China’s modernisation as its truest historical record. Even two or three such poets are enough.
- How do Chinese writers navigate the balance between state ideology and artistic freedom?
This complex, vital question demands reference to Eastern European poets like Miłosz. Personally, I balance epochal mandates and aesthetic pleasure, safeguarding language’s dignity. Poets work in the realm of souls, not streets. Overstepping brings dire consequences—Ezra Pound exemplifies this.
- What role does translation play in bringing Chinese literature to the global stage? Do you think Western audiences truly understand Chinese literature?
I recall someone saying (though I’ve forgotten who), “National literature is written by authors, while world literature is written by translators.” As both a writer and translator, I find great joy in being a humble swift that carries messages between cultures, delivering tidings across their divide.
As for the second part of your question—whether Western readers can truly understand Chinese poetry—my answer is no, or at least not easily. I am deeply perplexed by the phenomenon of certain authors, who haven’t even gained basic recognition within the Chinese literary sphere, managing to publish prolifically, secure awards, and thrive in the English-speaking world. No matter how vast the aesthetic differences may be, a good poem remains a good poem, and mediocrity remains mediocrity, regardless of the language in which it is written. Aesthetic divergence should never serve as an excuse to lower critical standards. Thus, I believe Western poets cannot truly grasp Chinese poetry. They also fail to distinguish between good and bad Chinese poets—a situation I find both bizarre and fascinating. Often, I cannot help but laugh.”
- Are there any contemporary Chinese writers or poets you admire and recommend to international readers?
I do have poets I personally admire, but they largely remain in underground circles. Those already known to the English-speaking world, I shall refrain from naming. Within Chinese avant-garde poetry, not a single poet has achieved broad consensus—even Mo Yan, despite his Nobel Prize, remains contentious in Chinese literary circles. Poets face even greater disparity: judgments about any poet vary drastically between readers and experts, with no one’s verdict holding absolute authority. My primary identity is that of a literature professor and theoretician of poetics. Having served five consecutive years as a judge for a prestigious poetry award, I dare assert that all poetry scholars engage in soliloquies. None commands the universal recognition of figures like Harold Bloom, Helen Vendler, or Marjorie Perloff. It’s all cliquish games—nothing more.
Thank you for your questions, dear friend. They’ve prompted me to rethink.
March 13, 2025
答巴基斯坦《信德信使》访谈：问题的另一面
访谈人：纳西尔·艾贾兹（NASIR AIJAZ），巴基斯坦记者、作家、研究员与诗人，《信德信使》主编
纳西尔·艾贾兹现居巴基斯坦信德省首府卡拉奇，是一位拥有48年新闻从业经验的资深记者与研究员。他曾于1988年和1989年凭借最佳报道分别荣获金牌奖及另一项殊荣。职业生涯中，他曾在多家报纸和通讯社担任要职编辑，并作为巴基斯坦电视台的电视主播逾十年，主持了400余档节目（1982-1992年），同时还在多个私营电视频道担任评论员。此外，他为巴基斯坦广播电台及其他私营电台制作了数十档节目。
艾贾兹著有10部著作，涵盖历史、语言、文学、游记及传记等领域。其中，《赫尔——自由战士》一书以研究英国殖民统治时期的战争为主题，曾获奖项肯定。另有五六部作品尚未出版。他还将埃及诗人阿什拉夫·阿布·亚齐德（Ashraf Aboul Yazid）的诗集翻译为信德语，并在埃及出版。近期，他又将孟加拉国作家德巴舍里·查克拉博蒂（Debasree Chakraborti）的英文小说《玛哈拉贾·迪希尔》译为信德语出版（原作为孟加拉语创作）。
除上述成就外，艾贾兹用英语、乌尔都语和信德语（其母语）撰写了约500篇文章，现任《信德信使》在线杂志主编，并为韩国在线新闻平台《亚洲新闻》（The AsiaN）供稿十一年。他的文章曾被译为阿拉伯语和韩语，并发表于新加坡、印度、尼日利亚等多国媒体。
在诗歌创作领域，艾贾兹自幼以信德语和英语写作，部分作品已译为奥里雅语、阿尔巴尼亚语、意大利语、阿拉伯语和希腊语。其中阿拉伯语译本在埃及、伊拉克和阿布扎比出版，英文诗作则见于阿尔巴尼亚、孟加拉国、科索沃、美国、英国、塔吉克斯坦、希腊、意大利等国。近期，其奥里雅语诗歌选集更在印度奥里萨邦布巴内斯瓦尔市的《玛胡里》（Mahuri）文学杂志上发表。
作为亚洲记者协会（AJA）的创始成员之一，艾贾兹曾访问十余个亚洲国家，并积极参与国际学术研讨会，持续推动跨文化交流与新闻事业的发展。
第1部分 关于个人文学创作
- 何种契机促使您成为作家/诗人？作品中常探讨哪些主题？
对生命意义的困惑。我六岁时开始对生与死发生了强烈的兴趣，甚至一种迷恋，我总想弄明白它们到底怎么回事。普通人随着年龄增长、理性成熟，就会将这些终极追问搁置，而成为海德格尔所说的“平均数的人”，也就是异化沉沦状态。我有幸始终不是“普通人”，对人生终极问题的探索贯穿我的一生，片刻没有放松过。当然，这带来了很难为人所理解的痛苦。
我的主题比较宽泛，但大致可以划分为灵魂归宿、自我异化、人与自然关系、社会批判、对创造性劳动过程本身的反思等。
2.个人经历如何影响您的创作？
写作的材料来自于真情实感，间接经验（如来自阅读的灵感）需要与直接经验融合。我有一部分诗歌是以最朴素的语言记录自己的真实生活经历，抛开了所谓文学语言的装饰，如象征、隐喻、张力、反讽等等手段，而是直接赤裸裸地面对事实本身，加以客观化的记录，以不变形来保持原汁原味的生活实感，因为个人的经历永远是整个时代和社会的反映。过度修辞化的诗歌会使事物失真和抽象化。
3.能否谈谈最新作品？希望传递何种讯息？
最近的作品，2023年迄今，有一些和英国诗人海伦·普莱茨的呼应诗或同题诗，挺有趣，它们不一定能代表我真正的诗学追求，有友谊的成分，但它的意义在于，恢复了中国古代诗人互相唱和的传统，但手段上依然是具有现代性和后现代性的。这些诗是两个不同语种诗人共同搭建的彩虹桥，它证明了诗歌有助于克服语言巴别塔，实现世界大同与人类和平。这个意义可能超越了诗歌本身。
而我这几年在重点建设一部跨文类的书，名为《庞德诗章》或《新生》。它依然是一种克服文化障碍、东西互鉴的尝试，里面有各种中西诗体、戏剧片段、大段的哲学沉思以及个人传记。很难归类的一部书。单纯的分行形式已经不足以容纳我的材料和思想。
4.您的创作是否反映当代中国？偏向历史还是抽象视角？
我的写作肯定与中国当代社会的现实有密切的关联，有的直接，有的藏在复杂的结构和意象内部，我不是与时代平行的诗人，而是与时代激烈纠缠在一起的诗人。抽象的超然的视角和对象化的写作，我已经予以否定了。什么意思呢？就是诗人所写的对象本身和诗人自己的生命体验是分离的，比如主题先行的观念写作，本质上这种诗不是诗，但很多汉语诗人依然在这么干。而我的诗歌里面，对象和我难分难解，互为表里，我就是万物，万物也无一不是我，类似于佛家所云，苍苍翠竹皆是法身，郁郁黄花无非般若。抽象的诗歌就像抽象的善，没有太大意义。
大体上来看，我把自己视作当代的陶渊明，不是说我有他那么高的造诣，而是在精神气质上的相似。陶渊明在世的时候，名气并不大，《诗品》里只把他评价为“中品偏下”，但是他死后的文学史地位极其崇高，甚至超越了王维和李白。
5.您的创作过程有何特点？遵循规律还是即兴发挥？
写作过程永远是神秘的，即便我们像波德莱尔和里尔克那样强调写作的“工作”性质，不依赖于灵感那“暗中的嘴巴的指令”，可实际过程中，依然需要灵感。诗歌写作的“工匠精神”更多的是一种伦理态度。我写诗很快，像李白那样“倚马可待”，但这指的是短诗，我的长诗的写作非常缓慢，有的需要二十年之久。小说写作可以遵循常规，比如每天写个几千字，但诗歌不行，诗歌需要超越人类的启示，坐在书桌前硬写，东拼西凑、胡编乱造一些句子，这很荒谬。自发、即兴和理性并不矛盾。
6.您的诗歌属于社会批判还是个人内省？
社会批判与个人内省在我的诗学中浑然一体，不可割裂。
- 在中国创作面临的最大挑战？
这个问题我想用一首诗来回答——
《在中国如何做诗人》
那些频频发表、把衙门
走得像自己家的诗人
那些频频出版、挥舞虹彩水浪花的诗人
那些下了这个舞台又上了那个舞台
穿花格外衣煞有介事的诗人
那些频频获奖、互相颁奖且不动声色的诗人
那些寂寞的拉低帽檐
偶尔在人群中一闪
便再也寻他不见的
革命党一样的诗人
那些偶尔发声
仿佛因长久的沉默而声音滞涩
像推开众神已逝的宫殿大门的守灵人一样的诗人
那些在创造的大洋深处
偶尔浮出来透口气升起孤零零水柱的巨鲸
那些偶尔的诗人
2022.12.20晨
8.您的创作如何承袭中国文学传统？受古典诗还是现代派影响？
中国古典诗歌的传统是抒情言志，我骨子里依然是个抒情性很强的诗人，但仅仅有抒情不足以应对当代社会人生的复杂经验，所以，我率先取得了汉语里的革命性突破，从主观抒情转向客观呈现，不是表达自我，而是呈现事物的本真——客观化诗学。这是我对传统的贡献，因为客观化诗学的目标正是中国古典哲学和诗学的最高境界——天人合一。从以我观物转到以物观物，物我不分，物我两忘。我的诗歌已经基本抵达这个无上胜境，但所用技巧与古典截然不同。古典诗歌是通过物象并置和隐藏主体来实现的，比如“微雨燕双飞，落花人独立”。但是我们现当代的中国人和唐宋时代的人完全是两回事，我们不能再因袭祖宗的方法，我们要以新的方法去观照世界，因为，方法变了，世界也变了。有了新的观照之法，我们会看到不同的世界——世界随观照方法而变化。
第二部分 关于中国文坛现状
1.如何评价当前中国文学景观？涌现哪些趋势？
我没有那么广阔的视野来评价整个当代中国文学，当然，任何学者可能同样没有这个能耐，除非是上帝才能做到。我比较熟悉的还是诗歌。这里只说缺陷。一个最大的弊端是当代诗歌的犬儒化和平面化。
1990年代的所谓个人化写作，对于消解宏大叙事当然有其贡献，它使得写作真正回到个体自我，而非代言人式的集体性自我，将写作的本然还给自身应在的位置，这是对朦胧诗写作范式的重大反拨和纠偏，但它同时也带来了一种危险的趋势，诗写者往往流于一己的个人情致，丧失了对人类普遍处境的关怀和道德担当，沉迷于琐碎之物的把玩和迷恋，同时，八十年代生机勃发的探索精神似乎也失去了动力，普遍陷于庸常，语言形式和更重要的诗歌精神两方面都没有大的进展。
到了新世纪网络时代，先锋诗歌进一步后卫化，成名者故步自封，鲜有在精神和技艺持续掘进的勇者。或是继续修辞性静态书写，和时代脱节和平行；或是以庸俗的小市民意识形态为乐，在泥坑里打滚，泼溅杂色的浪花；或是在根本没有对古典诗学的前提和存在的自然与社会文化条件进行谨慎反思的情况下，便消化不良地化用（误用）古典语汇，来将自己并不典雅的自我装修得金碧辉煌；或是对诗进行对象化的有距离的书写，没有个人生命体验的渗透和彻骨之痛，有的只是词语层面的姿态。
另一个弊端是诗人（包括所有的人文知识分子）无法知行合一，说一套做一套，在诗歌里把自己打扮得非常高尚，但在现实中却极其猥琐和庸俗，这种分裂导致了人格上的矮化，最终导致其诗歌成为虚伪的词语组合，后面并没有一个伟大的人格作为支撑。
当代汉诗，一片荒芜又狂欢的景象。大音希声，黄钟毁弃。个体心灵的大面积荒芜而不自知，自我的普遍异化腐化和主动犬儒化，对现实苦难视而不见，甚至以小布尔乔亚的廉价温情来涂抹和遮挡苦难之实存，对人类共同体何去何从的命运漠然无知，对无处不在渗透到毛细血管的恐惧和谎言知而不言……凡此种种皆为诗的耻辱，外在的苦难和内在的真实在能指滑动的书写中均告遗忘和消失，代之以歌舞升平的颂歌，和不疼不痒的自我抚摸。
所以，我从世纪初开始倡导“难度写作”，这是纯正汉语诗歌精神的最重要的运动。
2.当代中国文学更受传统还是全球影响？
后者的影响更大，因为从20世纪初期，汉诗已与传统决裂，只能向外来的尤其是西方传统取经。有雄心创造中华诗学的诗人非常少。在先锋诗歌这个领域，更多的是迅速将五花八门的西方诗歌的技巧拿过来使用，而基本领会不到西方诗歌的精神本质。所以，这些技巧反倒掩盖了汉语诗人精神和内心的苍白，成了一种伪装，其害处已经大于益处。这里我可以稍微有点骄傲地说，当代汉语诗歌的种种后现代实验和流派，或者与我的翻译有关，或者与我的写作有关。如果说汉语写作陷入了一个泥潭，那么，这个泥潭的始作俑者就是我，我罪莫大焉。是我最早将英美的后现代诗歌翻译引进到汉语里，填补了空白，它们为汉语诗人打开了眼界，但同时，由于汉语诗人主体精神的贫乏，他们只能猎奇一般将美国诗人五十年代就玩腻歪了的东西拿到汉语里来实践，并且如获至宝。我有时觉得他们很可怜。比如，有众多的人模仿约翰·阿什贝利，我真想大喝一声：你们模仿的不是他，而是我。
3.当今中国的作家和诗人面临着哪些挑战？是否存在任何限制或其他影响创造力的问题？
讽刺诗和批判社会现实丑恶的诗歌，基本绝种了。官方刊物只发表不疼不痒、可有可无的诗歌。所以，我一直在强调，要写不能发表的诗，写没有人喜欢的诗，或者，喜欢的人越少越好。
4.数字媒体和互联网如何改变了中国文学的生产和消费方式？
自媒体促进了诗歌的民主化和多元化，但同时也造成了写作和阅读的快餐化，有利有弊。年轻诗人大多不在乎在官方纸媒体上发表，有网络自媒体交流就足够了。
5.诗歌在中国还被广泛阅读和欣赏吗？它如何适应现代中国社会？
优秀的汉语诗歌（很少）依然是中华民族最深切的内心声音，它始终伴随着中国现代化的进程，是最真实可靠的历史记录。尽管这样的诗人很少，但只要还有那么两三个，就够了。
6.中国作家如何调节意识形态与艺术自由之间的平衡？
这个话题比较复杂，也意义重大。我更想提示朋友们，参考东欧诗人，如波兰米沃什，爱尔兰谢默斯·希尼，看看他们是怎么处理这个问题的。具体到个人，我比较倾向于在时代律令和审美愉悦之间保持平衡，以守护语言本身来维护审美的尊严，而不是把自己变成宣传家、革命家，诗人就是诗人，诗人在人类灵魂的领域工作，而不是走上街头。越界的可怕后果已经有了，比如艾兹拉·庞德。
7.翻译在中国文学国际化中的作用？西方读者真懂中国文学吗？
国别文学要成为世界文学的一部分，自然离不开翻译。若泽·萨拉马戈有言：“民族文学由作家创造，世界文学靠译者成就。”作为作者和译者，我觉得在不同文化之间做一只谦逊的雨燕，在两者之间传递福音，是很幸福的事情。
这个问题的第二部分，西方读者能否真正理解中国诗歌，我认为，不能，或很难。因为我观察到，在汉语里连入门都没有的有些作者，居然能在英语世界大量发表、出版甚至获奖，这让我极其困惑。无论审美差异有多么大，但好诗就是好诗，平庸的诗就是平庸，无论它是什么语言写的。审美差异绝不应该成为降低审美标准的借口。所以，我认为西方诗人读不懂汉语诗歌。也分不清汉语诗人中谁的诗歌好，谁的诗歌不好。这非常奇妙和怪异。我往往忍俊不禁。
8.你有没有欣赏并推荐给国际读者的中国当代作家或诗人？
我当然有自己赞赏的诗人，但他们基本处于地下状态，目前为英语世界所知者恕不提名。汉语先锋诗歌中，迄今没有一个诗人得到公认，甚至莫言得了诺奖，在汉语里依然争议不断。诗人更是如此，任何一个诗人，读者和专家对他的判断，都是大相径庭，谁也不能说谁的判断就是真理。我自己的本质工作是文学教授，我的专业身份是诗学理论家，我也曾连续五年担任某个很有影响的诗歌奖的评委，我敢于说，所有的诗歌学者都是自说自话，没有任何一个能像布鲁姆、海伦·文德勒和玛乔瑞·珀洛夫那样得到公认，成为权威。都是小圈子的游戏，如此而已。
感谢提问，亲爱的朋友，促使我重新思考。
2025年3月13日
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